Q&A from 2022 Trinity Family Conference on Fatherhood & Spiritual Warfare
The audio we captured for the Q&A at our family conference was distorted due to a funky wireless transmitter. So, we didn’t post the audio. Because the content was valuable, though, we made a transcription of the session. Pick up the audio for the sessions here.
Question 1: Can young men and old men be friends?
Dr. Renton Rathbun: I’ve been mentored by an older man and there are characteristics of friendship in it, but I wouldn't call it a friendship. Just like when you become an adult and there’s a new kind of relationship you have with your dad. It's more friendly than it was before, but it's still not friends. There's still a line there of respect that you wouldn't have with someone closer to your own age. In the end, it is fatherhood that we should be seeking–young men, as you get older, you should be seeking to be a father.
Pastor Andy Halsey: Yeah, stage of life should be at the heart of that question. When you talk about picking your friends, it's people who are going through the same things that you're going through and you're pulling the same loads together. That's the value of friendship. When you can look at a brother and say, Hey, you're doing what I'm doing.
Question 2: Is it appropriate for your children to point out your flaws or sins and still show you respect?
Renton: Yeah, your kids, especially when they're really little, will point out your flaws just from noticing them. As they become teenagers they'll do it to manipulate you. Your response needs to be, first of all, is that something I really struggle with or I've really done or is it something they're misunderstanding? But if it is true then you need to address it., and say that is something I struggle with. That’s something that I hadn't done with our oldest son, until he was older, and I wish I had done it when he was younger. When he was younger, I didn't sin, not once. It was hard, but I did it. [Laughter] But when they become teenagers it’s like, “Oh, dad isn't perfect.” And it really does hit them and it sometimes disillusions them. Like “If Dad isn't who I thought he was, then what's this whole Christianity thing about?” I wish I would have shown him that Christianity, as Martin Luther said, is a life of repentance. I wish I would have shown him that more and been more transparent with him earlier. But I really saw that as a weakness when I was younger, and I didn't want him to see weakness, because then I wouldn't be showing what a great dad I was. And of course, sin and pride always destroy everything around you.
Pastor Joseph Bayly: I would say, it'll happen and it’ll happen even accidentally where your children point out your sin. If you want to avoid them saying, "yeah, you do that,” the way to go is to be noticing your sin and apologizing to them for it. You know they're seeing it because the first way they point out your sin is simply by doing it. They follow in your footsteps. So I have a son that is pushy and brusk with people physically. And I realized he was always in my way and that I was always just shoving him. And so I saw him doing that and wondered “why is he doing that to people?” Why is he doing that to his little sister? Oh, okay. So I had to see it first in him, then I had to recognize it was coming from me. Then I had to begin to apologize to him for it. And about half the time I was doing that, it was because I was disciplining him for it, and then I knew I had to.
Andy: Here's a Bible quiz. There’s a passage of scripture that admonishes young men on how to deal with old men. What does it say?
Joseph: Appeal to them as to a father.
Andy: In other words: don't rebuke an older man harshly, but appeal to him as to a father. So that implies there is some proper approach to a father in addressing his sins. So when your son says. “Dad, you're fat, you're eating all my Halloween candy!” just to take a random example, I don't know where that comes from…first of all, you should be tender toward that effort. If it's appropriate, if he's doing it right, reward him with: “Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. It's time for bed son.” But all his life he's going to see adults sin. What you don't want to have happen is for him to say, “Well, holiness is for kids, and grown-ups get to do whatever they want.” So he should see the pattern of repentance and apologizing and what a man looks like when he's called on the carpet. “Now, son, I am your father, remember? Do you watch your tone? You respect me.” Make sure that he learns to do that in the way that Paul tells Timothy.
Question 3: I didn't know how to play as a young father. It was always business, always working. So is there something that you need to focus on if you're going to have young children.
Joseph: If you want to play with your kids, you do have to learn how to play with them and you have to discipline yourself to do it. When you're tired. When it's not enjoyable to you, but it is to them. When you do have other work to do. When you’re tired and you have to wrestle with them on the floor. So it's work to play. Set it up as a challenge that you'll begin to do it. Even if you’re old.
Andy: When my grandfather was 86, 87 years old, he could get down on the floor and get back up again. Quicker than I could. So, I don't know if there's a physical education program we need to put fathers through. Not everybody can be a farmer all their life, but, get down there because that's where the kids are and make your body just do it. And that's why they made Tylenol.
Question 4: What do you do when you find it easier to make friends with nonbelievers, then believers?
Renton: So I deal with students between the ages of 18 and 20 at a Christian college that has a weird reputation. And I hear from them all the time that at their job (that’s off campus somewhere) unbelievers are kinder and more considerate to them than Christians are on campus. And I hear that enough to see that there is a problem because I believe them. With that in mind, the question is, how do I find Christians that I can be friends with, who have Christ in common? And it's not as easy as some unbelievers because in First Corinthians it tells us very clearly that God chose the weaker people to be his people than the stronger people, because he gets all the glory when weak people do great things through Him. The other part of it is sometimes we have to begin to value something more than personality matching. So our church has different kinds of personalities, and not all the personalities are going to be easy to fit together. You might have guys that I can ping off of. Say something, you know funny. They say something funny back. But that also is not what a real friendship is. The kind of friendships I've had that were the strongest friendships actually took more time because our personalities were not perfectly matched. But Christ in us is perfectly matched. And because I began to value Christ in me, I began to value Christ in that person and that drew us together more than even personality matches did. That's really what helped me. And so people that I wouldn't have been friends with before I actually started to get really close to when our personalities would not have worked out otherwise. I see this at the university as well, where there's kids, they feel really alone even with about 2500 kids all around them. Some of that is because they don't feel they're connecting to the people they want to be friends with. And I keep telling them, “Why don't you try the people you don't want to be friends with?” You know, the geeks, the dorks, the freaks, that may not be as cool as you, but maybe you could be the cool friend, you know? They might think you're cool. So I would think less about “how does my personality mesh with someone,” and more of “do I value Christ in other people?”
Pastor Andrew Dionne: A verse that comes to mind is “Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.” The friends of your soul are the ones who know what's good for you, and they can wound you, and you know they love you. They're not wounding you because they're jealous or they're taking out their aggression and they want to beat you down. But they will speak truth, and that’s a true friend. An enemy will shower you with kisses, will affirm you, but that's all deceit. It's not good for you. It feels good, but it's not what you need. Friendship perseveres through wounding, which just is incredible, because we are all so fragile.
Joseph: First, simply ask the question to yourself, “Why is it?” Is it something about you? Is it something about non-Christians? Is it something about the Christians that you're hanging around? And there could be totally different reasons for any number of people to have the same question as you. So if it's because the Christians that you're typically hanging out with aren't real, well, then it's understandable because if the non-Christians are at least honest with you about what they're going through and what they're feeling and so forth, and the Christians are always pretending, well, you can't be friends with people who are fake. So depending on what the answers to those questions are is going to really change the answer. Think about what is it about people around you. Or is it something about you?
Andy: Friendship is a work. It’s not entertainment. When you're an unbeliever, it’s entertainment because it's just the natural thing to do. Friendship is a natural thing. It's you do the things that you're all interested in and have in common. One of the comedians says, “All it takes for a guy to be friends is to be a guy. Like sports or something.” And it's effortless. But when you're a Christian, you're fighting against, like, everything. So everything is hard when you're a Christian. That’s what it seems like. It's glorious, but it's hard.
Question 5: What do we do with degenerative diseases and loss of health? When it seems like every new symptom is a new grief.
Andy: Everybody has to get there eventually. Every suffering is a ministry God entrusts you with. What Joseph said in his talk was about presenting suffering to a watching world. And you have to do the work of honoring God through that suffering. The Book of Common Prayer used to have instructions for visitors where they would say something like “this has happened to you because you've done something that you're being disciplined for.” But another answer is “You are going through this to show the church the enduring joy of Christ when you're losing everything else.” I don't have any advice other than just to try to keep framing your suffering that way, because none of us can keep our health. You just have been given a vanguard position. To suffer ahead of time and to lead the rest of the family through what that means and what that's going to look like.
Joseph: That's a good way of putting it, "the vanguard position.” Some people are taken away early in life and in that way avoid much suffering. But grandparents that I have known who have been alive after all of their friends are gone, and they have said goodbye…and now their health is deteriorating, or has been the whole time, but they haven't been the ones to leave yet. Regardless of which way you look at it, it comes to all of us. And in the end, our hope is in that Day, that God will bring us through to that Day, through the veil of tears and through the sufferings of this life and through the valley of the shadow of death.
Andy: Our lives have been filled with people who have been healthy and had been on health kicks and have been selling this or that online–this nutrient supplement, this system–they started out healthy and now they’re thin and healthy and they're smiling. And you're not really sure if their teeth are really that white or is that a filter. And there's something blessedly real about a suffering you cannot deny and can't do anything about. So in our family, there are like three of us who have arthritis. So if you do the math, that means somebody who's under 40 is suffering in a way that you're not supposed to yet. But it's sweet to realize the curse is still the curse, we all have to die. So when I say vanguard, it's like this is the point of courage where you get to present to the world a picture of the image of God, someone God loves suffers, and you're not going to do anything about it. And then what Joseph said: there's the resurrection. I'm looking forward to something. And it's not Plexus. I'm looking forward to the resurrection. That will work. And that's my hope.
Renton: We know that our life here on this earth is not designed by God to be only comfort and ease. On a quiz, we would check that box and say, “That's right.” But then either yourself or someone you love is given a diagnosis and you realize how that seems to work only on a quiz. My mentor up in Toledo was one of the smartest men I've ever known, had an M.D. and Ph.D., went around the world to talk to people, and people gathered to hear him speak. His intelligence was part of what made him so special, and that is the very place God decided to make him suffer. And so he finds a tumor in his brain. They remove as much as they can, but he's diminishing and diminishing and diminishing in the very thing that made him special. And yet, if we weren't Christians, I'd be infuriated and filled with anger. But then you really realize that the Lord is serious, that this world is to designed for us to be conformed to the image of his Son. And that's going to hurt. And that whatever God has put in our lives is for that conforming to the image of his Son. And that really is more important to Him than our comfort, because He's doing that so that one day we will be in comfort, the kind of comfort we are longing for here we actually get to have. But not yet.
Andrew: Suffering is the only opportunity you have to glorify God. Because if you're not suffering, likely you're not glorifying God. In other words, you witness from your prison. God has put you in prison, but the Word of God is not in prison, as the Apostle Paul says. So he rejoices in his suffering and he boasts that in suffering the Word of God will go out better than it did before. And so it is in your suffering that you glorify God. That's how Jesus did it and His power is still perfected in weakness.